Avermedia < Vision Plus < Nebula, Three cards tested Options

[speedmeup]

Avermedia

First up I ordered an Avermedia thinking I'll wait for decent 3rd party software (showshifter/myHTPC/XPMCE) compatibility. Big mistake!

I have a second sound card in my PC to connect a headset to for messenger (works really well - SPDIF on sound card 1 goes to HT amp for Music,DVDs,TV and headset connects to sound card 2). Problem is was that Avermedia won't work with multiple sound cards so I pulled my second sound card thinking I'll live without it for a while.

Next the software and drivers were soooo bad that the system was useless. I mean, if you're using your PC to watch TV then you need it to be stable don't you? Funky features are a nice to have but avermedia was just terrible for basic operation. I gave loads of feedback to their developers but got little or no response and their web site is so pathetic that I hated myself for making such a poor purchase choice every time I desperately visited to check for a software update.

So now to VisionPlus

I would probably have stuck with the VP card. It worked really well and the software (both apps) were clearly 100 times better than avermedia's. Problem was it only worked with Ch7. All other channels the picture stuttered every couple of seconds so it was basically unwatchable even though the signal strength and quality indicators looked good. I'm in Sydney and thought it might be my aerial but eventually my aerial proved good. My hardware is Asus P4C800 Deluxe with nVidia 5200 A340 leadtek dual screen XP SP1. I even installed XP from scratch on a newly formatted hard drive with an indoor aerial sat out on my 13th floor North facing (where the tv transmitters are) balcony. No change. Ch7 great (inc HD) but all others still stuttering like mad. Must have been some kind of software/hardware clash because that card has since tested OK by Renura.

So finally to Nebula

I was about to give up but the VP card has no analogue in so I couldn't even connect it to my VCR until I worked out what the problem was. I upgraded to the nebula card and was resigned to not having digital TV for the foreseeable. To my utter delight I installed the card and Bingo - All channels worked brilliantly. Didn't bother with the CD they sent but instead downloaded the latest version from the web site. Now if VP = Avermedia*100 then Nebula = VP*100!

Things I already knew about: The RF passthrough is great if you want to connect an old-style VCR or TV without having to split your signal. The composite in is great so I can copy all my old VCRs to DVD (hopefully I can use my sound card stereo line-in rather than the mono port on the nebula). The 4-in-1 remote will probably come in really useful too.

Stuff that surprised and delighted me: Where the Nebula really wins hands-down is the software. It just feels so much more powerful, stable and flexible. I'm a little bit of a tweaker /power user and the number of possible options blew even me away. There's probably no need to touch most of them, I mean the card worked great out of the box but every user is different and I can't wait to work through them all to perfect my experience. The software is clearly more mature made me feel really comfortable. The software can even be set to auto-update. I actually wouldn't really mind manually updating because it's so easy to check the nebula site (unlike avermedia the site, the layout is great, consistent and easy to follow).

Best $70 (diff between VP and Nebula) I EVER spent. No way would I go back to either card now even if I thought they would work according to my original expectation. The nebula does something that is uncommon in these days of marketing campaigns and low profit margins: It massively over-delivers

Summary:
Avermedia - don't bother unless you read somewhere they've spent ~$1M on development (if their web site continues to look so awful there's a good indication). The clapped-out Honda Civic.
VP - If it works in your PC then it's a good card with adequate software that will probably mature in time if development resources are maintained. The Ford Falcon.
Nebula - the Rolls Royce Corniche. What more can I say? It blows the other two out of the water.

Finally, thanks to Renura for the excellent service throughout the experience.

[Anarchi]

Well from my experience I see the Avermedia more like a Hyandai Excel - cheap and frowned upon. (I have a Civic and they are great well built reliable cars - can be refered to as a Nebula sibling (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif) )

I never owned the VPlus, but I agree with you with the Nebula - its a great card with excellent software, off course DigiTV also has minor beta issues (what new software doesnt?), but the constant dedication to development of DigiTV and the excellent support will make this card the ultimate pick of the bunch.

[14all]

VP - If it works in your PC then it's a good card with adequate software that will probably mature in time if development resources are maintained. The Ford Falcon.
Nebula - the Rolls Royce Corniche. What more can I say? It blows the other two out of the water.

Since we are talking about cars........

I tried an Avermedia once, but it did not last long, I would probably say it is like a Skoda (do a serch on google if you don't know what it is).

I have both VisionPlus and Nebula and I would say:

the Nebula is more like a Mercedes (I don't think is as boring as the Rolls Royce yet - surely you don't want some one else to drive it for ya?), good enginering, good support, definetely well constructed - a winner, no doubt.

The VisionPlus, is definetely a Ferrari (great looking picture), well engineered also, but not as consistent, needs a good driver, someone who knows what he/she is doing, and of course the right roads (it would be wasted in the city!!), for the open roads. And definetely not for those that prefer to be chaffeured around (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

They are both in my garage, but guess what gets driven most??

[Croc]

hey new skodas are made by VW and some of the new models are fantastic (just that bloody skoda logo)
i said some because i'm not sure if VW put their hands in to all models or just the top of the line models.
so maybe you should compare aver to syrenka, if you don't know what is it google it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[Croc]

http://adam.kondrat.pl/syrena/

[RisingPhoenix]

Or a Lada (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[joeybloggs]

So which card is the Leyland P76 ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[goshen]

The composite in is great so I can copy all my old VCRs to DVD (hopefully I can use my sound card stereo line-in rather than the mono port on the nebula). The 4-in-1 remote will probably come in really useful too.

Just to comment on this.... (sorry to steer the conversation away from bad cars!)

I tried hooking my VCR up last night, but couldn't get any sound to play on the DigiTV program - through my stereo. The picture was fine, but no sound. I tried hooking up the RCA sound output to both my soundcard (3.5mm minijack) and to the Nebula card via a single RCA - ie I just left the R channel dangling, and set the VCR to output only mono sound - but I couldn't get sound at all.

Has anyone got good results with their VCR yet?

Thanks,
Goshen

[joeybloggs]

I've had no problems using DScaler or ASUS Digital VCR.

Check that you don't have Line In muted in the system volume / mixer controls ?

[Wired]

The picture was fine, but no sound. I tried hooking up the RCA sound output to both my soundcard (3.5mm minijack) and to the Nebula card via a single RCA - ie I just left the R channel dangling, and set the VCR to output only mono sound - but I couldn't get sound at all.

Use a 3.5mm to RCA cable to plug the VCR outputs into the soundcard line in port (using the 3.5mm plug) and select the line in as the recording voice and unmute it in the system mixer.

[goshen]

Yep, that was it - my Line In was muted.

Got it working now - I put the resolution at 640x480 but gee, the pure AVI's are HUGE files!

Anyway, thanks.

[Alex]

[quote=14all,Jan 15 2004, 08:56 AM] [QUOTE]
the Nebula is more like a Mercedes (I don't think is as boring as the Rolls Royce yet - surely you don't want some one else to drive it for ya?), good enginering, good support, definetely well constructed - a winner, no doubt.

The VisionPlus, is definetely a Ferrari (great looking picture), well engineered also, but not as consistent, needs a good driver, someone who knows what he/she is doing, and of course the right roads (it would be wasted in the city!!), for the open roads. And definetely not for those that prefer to be chaffeured around (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

They are both in my garage, but guess what gets driven most?? [/quote]
14all,
could you please explain "great looking picture" in reference to VisionPlus? If both cards copy the DVB stream... Shouldn't they look identical? I mean, if somehow that TS was translated into a .mpeg file and played by PowerDVD (or whatever).. Wouldn't they look they same?
Alex

[14all]

could you please explain "great looking picture" in reference to VisionPlus? If both cards copy the DVB stream... Shouldn't they look identical? I

Alex,

The Nebula uses its own video decoders for playing a particular broadcast.

These decoders are not as good as the ones used in the VisionPlus which uses Cyberlink or Intervideo, which amongst other things support DxVA making it easier to decode HDTV on a lower powered CPU, providing you have a decent video card tha fully implements DxVA (like most of the Radeons).

If you simply record the TS and save to a hard drive for later playing using WinDVD or other TS player, the picture will be the same, of course. (if that is all you want you don't need the Nebula, as any card that can capture the TS and save it to HDD, will do)

So the difference is really in the decoders. The problem with Nebula is that it does not support other external decoders.

This IMHO is a MAJOR DRAWBACK as you have to use what they give you for live viewing.

[jrr]

Avermedia

...
I have a second sound card in my PC to connect a headset to for messenger (works really well - SPDIF on sound card 1 goes to HT amp for Music,DVDs,TV and headset connects to sound card 2). Problem is was that Avermedia won't work with multiple sound cards so I pulled my second sound card thinking I'll live without it for a while.

Next the software and drivers were soooo bad that the system was useless. I mean, if you're using your PC to watch TV then you need it to be stable don't you? Funky features are a nice to have but avermedia was just terrible for basic operation. I gave loads of feedback to their developers but got little or no response and their web site is so pathetic that I hated myself for making such a poor purchase choice every time I desperately visited to check for a software update.

I wish to add another perspective to this...

I have an Avermedia DVB-T card and it works just fine thanks.

I have not just two audio cards, but 3. The one on the motherboard and two very high end bus mastering multi channel 24/96 cards. My Avermedia works fine with multiple audio cards.

Driver installed first time off the CD supplied with the card, as did the software.

My system has been no more or less stable since I installed the Avermedia card, to whit, it has remained completely stable.

Windows XP SP1 with all MS updates. ACPI Hal, with APIC enabled. Asus A7N266 nForce1 motherboard, XP2400+ CPU, 512 Meg memory, 80 gig primary drive & new 200 Gig data drive. Pioneer A05 DVD Burner, and Pioneer 117 DVD Rom. Dual Head GForce 4 AGP video.
STAudio DSP24 C-Port and STAudio DSP24 Media 7.1 PCI audio cards, Avermedia DTV card.

regards,

jr

[speedmeup]

My Avermedia works fine with multiple audio cards.

That's interesting. The multi-sound card problem must have been added in a later version because it's there in the software release notes "Does not support the multiple sound card" (or similarly bad English) under the "Known Issues" section.

I'm glad you've found the Avermedia suits your needs. I would probably have stopped there too if I could have stabilised it but the feature set I have now makes me a very happy camper indeed. I'm not saying that the Avermedia is good for nothing. I'm sure there are many happy users. Only trying to provide a relative comparison with it's competition.

Cheers

[guerny]

So the difference is really in the decoders. The problem with Nebula is that it does not support other external decoders.

Exactly which external codecs does the VP software support?
will it support any external codec or just specific ones?

I am wondering if it would support the Sonic decoders everyone raves about over on the www.htpcnews.com forums.

G

[Willz75]

speedmeup,

I recently purchased a VP DVB-T card I'm experiencing very similar problems to you... all my channels (SD only) are nearly unwatchable. Picture quality is excellent BUT every 5-10 secs I get stuttering and pauses (while viewing). CPU is at 8-12% load, my signal strength is around 85% and Quality is 95-98%. I have a STB and it works flawlessly. I've pretty much tried everything suggested by users and even Renura. I've even tried it on 2 other PCs (at different locations) without success.

I'm thinking it maybe a faulty card, but if it tests fine by Renura then I may do what you did and *upgrade* to the Nebula PCI. I hope it's just a faulty card and not PC(s) related! Wish me luck!

Willz75

[speedmeup]

I'm experiencing very similar problems to you

You know what... I just happened to try playing back a Nebula-created mpeg file in windows media player. The file plays fine in Nebula's media player but in WMP I still have exactly the same problem with pauses making the file unwatchable!! I don't really care but I'd like to find out what causes this and I'm sure the information will be useful for future users.

Does anyone know how I can find out and change which codecs and filters are being used in WMP?

[HyperReality]

speedmeup,

The problem you are seeing is because the MPEG2 codecs that WMP often uses (depending on what you have installed) only handle 2048 byte packet format MPEG2 program stream files (also known as "DVD format").

The recordings that most DVB-T cards make (when recording a single channel) are in a format that is generally known as "broadcast program stream" or PVA format. These recordings use a different size packets and can cause codecs that expect 2048 byte packets to choke and stutter.

You can also often record the entire Transport Stream for a particular TV station - which includes both the SD and HD and other channels multiplexed together. Very few codecs will cope with these (though you can get some filters that will demulitplex etc on the fly - and will handle things like DVD VOB files (which are Transport Stream files containing "DVD format" streams)).

So, if you want WMP not to stutter, you need to convert the files to the correct format (as discussed in many threads on this forum - search for ProjectX, mplex1, PVAStrumento) but I find the Cyberlink codecs (PowerDVD etc) cope with broadcast PS files quite well too.

[guerny]

so anyone tried the sonic decoders?

G